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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - TD water pump - six vane impeller question

As part of my having to disassemble the front of the engine to determine the cause of my engine failure, I took off the water pump. I've been cleaning it and I was also on the MG ebay watch site and saw that someone was selling 6 vane water impellers, that need to be drilled to fit.
Has anybody done this, and if so, what is involved? Is this a simple job or would it be better to just buy a modified pump, which are available?
Geoffrey M Baker

Butch Targas can and does build them . He is a regular on this board
T Maine

Butch Taras: rbtaras (at) sbcglobal dot net
Steve S

Geoff, I had Butch rebuild a water pump for me last winter that included a six-vane impeller. Got through last summer's 4th of July parade with the water temperature needle out of the oil pressure range for the first time in a long time. Butch does great work. Bud
Bud Krueger

I understand that and have corresponded with Butch. I was just curious to see if anyone had rebuilt their own using the impellers for sale on ebay.
Geoffrey M Baker

Geoffrey,
Moss Water Pump #434-010 is also a six-vane impeller.
Bill
TD24570

Bill Brown

Reactivated thread. Just picked up my reconditioned water pump with the new seals fitted & it fell through the bottom of the box, hit the road & smashed the impeller! As I now need a replacement, can anyone advise me on where I can pick up a suitable impeller? Maybe I can turn a sow's ear into a silk purse & use this "opportunity" to fit the 6 vane impeller mentioned above.
Help! Cheers :-(
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

I'm not looking for a new pump, just the impeller. As long as it fits the original pump, either 4 vane or 6 vane. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

In desperation I tried Abingdon Spares & they are showing one on their site, PN 07 021. Can anyone recommend this part? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter, you might want to check with Butch Taras (mgyowner(at)yahoo.com). http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/imgytr/stores/taras.shtml I'm quite happy with the one that I had him install on my pump that he rebuilt. Bud
Bud Krueger

Peter, its expensive but you can simply buy the impeller I built and had 3D printed at the online service Shapeways.

http://shpws.me/Hm4T

It costs $110, but is more efficient than any other impeller available.

Fits the standard shaft. It required no machining and works perfectly. I did have it drilled out and a conical pin fitted to the shaft, but I don't think that is necessary, it was overkill on my part.

I believe the only other impellers you can buy (on ebay for about $55 if I remember correctly, I couldn't find it this morning) are 6 vane (old style) that require machining of all the faces.



Geoffrey M Baker

Thanks Geoff but the Shapeways unit is way out of my price range. I've emailed Butch so hopefully he may have a solution. Anyone have any feedback on the one from Abingdon Spares or details on the Ebay items? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter the item is back on ebay. Requires drilling for shaft and machining of all faces. $49.95

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-IMPROVED-BRONZE-6-VANE-WATER-PUMP-IMPELLER-MGTA-MGTC-MGTD-mgtf-Y-TYPE-XPAG-/381519777648?hash=item58d459cf70:g:gtAAAMXQrvpRFI06&vxp=mtr

Good luck!
Geoffrey M Baker

OK. A few questions.

1. On the impeller shown on the AS site, 07 021, does this fit both the later original water pump & the one identified as the TC early TD?

2. The illustration on D4 of the Workshop Manual seems to suggest that the "Early Carbon Ring Seal (5 & 21)" is simply replaced as a unit with the "Later Integral Seal (5 & 21)", thus restoring an early pump seal. Is this correct?

3. AS don't show item 07 020 presumably because it is no longer available. Is this so?

4. If 07 020 is NA does this leave me between a rock & a hard place?

5. Can the boss on impeller 07 021 be machined down to the size of the original impeller shown on D4 so that it can be used with the recently recommended replacement washing machine water pump seal?

6. Does the 6 vane Ebay impeller really improve cooling as it's been suggested that moving water more rapidly through the radiator actually has the opposite effect?

7. It's been suggested that the sealed after market water pumps currently available are neither as robust or well performed as a reconditioned original. Is this so?

Given the amount of work needed on the bronze Ebay items, along with the question on the desirability of the 6 vanes, it seems the most viable solution for me, (if I can't find a serviceable original pump), is to either find an original carbon ring impeller in good condition or machine down a 07 021 for use with the washing machine water pump seal, providing I'm correct in assuming it will fit into the early TD pump body.

I've read all of the threads on this subject in the archive which still leaves the above questions unanswered. TYIAFYI. Cheers
Peter TD 5801

P Hehir

I don't have answers to half those questions Peter but others may have. I can say that
6) I have only read positive comments on the 6 vane impellers.
7) I doubt that anything manufactured today is as good as the original water pumps in terms of robustness.
Generally, it has been hard-to-impossible to find original seals and even if you can find them, their age makes them highly suspect.

Costwise, your best bet may be just to look for a used water pump on ebay. I definitely don't recommend the unmachined 6 vane impellers, I think they look crappy and need serious work to use at all.
Geoffrey M Baker

Hi Peter,

Do you have the early or late pump?

If you are after an impeller for the early style pump I have a couple in my shed attached to old leaky pumps. I think the impellers, which tend to rust on to the shafts, have to be removed to dissemble the pump? ... haven't worked on early ones for 40 years!

I am 99% certain that the early pump body can be machined out to take the OD of the later seal. (I worked out it could be done but have never done it.) Then to accommodate the later seal, the later impeller would have to be fitted (or an adapter machined up to mate the early impeller with the later seal). I don't know if the early and late shafts are the same at the impeller end.

You probably know that the later seals, although N/A from Moss etc, are readily available from some seal distributors. (They are for other applications but the distributors don't know they fit T-Types.) I have a few of those in my shed too. When I rebuild the later pumps, I use sealed bearings which allow the rear seal mechanism to be partially removed and this allows me to reassemble leaving the impeller on the shaft.

Don't know much about 4 vs 6 vane impellers. I have a 4 vane on my s/c TC special and it seems to do ok. I would guess that the vane shape is as important as the number. I must ask an engineer what shape and number of vanes absorbs least power, because that would be usefull info' for the race car.

I will look up AS site to see what 07 020 is.

oTCagonally, Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

Peter,
The AS part number 07 020 I see is the later seal. John Walton, from Sydney found a supplier there. Pump Seal Supplies (Sydney) have it as part number H68-127C-AXN-XX-,F-12L. In South Australia, it is available at AUSSEAL where the part number is B03ABXSO127334 for the same seal. They come with a ceramic seat which I discard but could probably be fitted to the early impeller somehow.

Lots of discussion re the seal problems in the BBS archives. My post was called WATER PUMP SEALS AVAILABLE or something like that. I think I sent a seal or two to Geoffrey Baker a while back.

Good luck with it.

Bob
R L Schapel

G'day Bob. I have two early pumps. It seems you have provided an answer to questions 1, 2, 3 & 4 above, that being they are not interchangeable. I now understand that the no longer available 07 020 can be replaced with the seal from Pump Seal Supplies (Sydney) Part Number H68-127C-AXN-XX-,F-12L. I've spoken to John Walton who had a later pump with the above seals fitted & he confirms that the later seal can't be used in an early pump without modifying the body. Question 5 is now moot as it was posed on a misunderstanding. Even if I do get an impeller for either of the two early pumps there are no seals available.

It seems that it is possible to machine out the body of an earlier pump to accommodate the 07 020 (seal i.e. the one from the washing machine) & 07 021 (impeller). The relevant question now is are the shafts the same? The WSM on D.5 gives two different part numbers for the early & later spindles which suggests that they are not. If they do differ then it would appear that an early pump is not repairable as there is no replacement for the seal, UNLESS the new spindle can be used in the modified body along with AS 07 020 & AS 07 021. Anybody know the answer? If at all possible I'd love to restore & use the original pump. The drawing is from the AS catalogue. Cheers
Peter TD 5801


P Hehir

Must have been a year ago that I got one of those $55 Moss ones with the 6 vane impeller, as they are again on sale now. Actually the one I ordered was supposed to have a fake grease nipple to look like an original one, and come with a 4 vane impeller. It came with the 6 vane, no fake nipple. Whatever. It has the graphite seal that you need to spin with a big drill chuck to seat (according to directions, then install- or otherwise keep wet. The setup was a bit time consuming, to get the adjustments right and the pulley right. Seems to work just fine. Can't beat the price for a working spare.
D mckellar

For $55 I guess it's worth a shot. I thought I'd found all there was to see in the archive on water pumps but by just adding the word "seal" a whole new world has opened up. The Dilitex seals look promising. I have much more research to undertake as I'm hell bent on refitting a working original pump. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

If the new spindle is the later type and that is designed to go with the later impeller (AS 07 021) and the new style seal (from Pump Seal Supplies) then it should all work out. However, the early pump body would have to be bored out to suit the OD of the later seal.

I once thought about making a fly-cutter, piloted off the water pump bearings to do that job but there are too many other things to do! Perhaps one day .... and I would have to work out a way of adapting the ceramic seat (which comes with the new seal) to the early impeller to complete the mod.

Bob
R L Schapel

Encouraging Bob, thanks mate. I don't follow your second comment however. If I use the new shaft, impeller & seal I think the early impeller is then redundant is it not? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Bob S, I did get the seal but never ended up using it. I finally decided my shaft required full replacement because the threads were nearly gone and water damage had pitted too much of the bearing surfaces.
So I ended up having Butch Taras rebuild the pump with a new shaft, as I could not find replacement shafts available.
Geoffrey M Baker

Has anyone, anywhere recently rebuilt the early TC/TD pump? (NOT the later TF version as clearly this is now possible with the seals from Pump Seal Supplies, providing the spindle is able to be reused). As Geoff discovered neither Moss, Abingdon Spares or FTFU are able to supply the spindles for either pump. Equivalent bearings are available so it seems the only bar to restoration of either type would be finding a source for the spindles. I doubt that they would be difficult to turn up, perhaps in stainless, given the propensity of the originals to rust. If anyone in Oz has an original spindle for either pump that could be used as a template I'd like to try & get one made in stainless. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Sorry Peter. I thought your second paragraph about seven posts above was asking if the whole later set-up could be put in an early pump body if the latter was machined out.

Yes, I have a few WP shafts. I think one or two are in good condition. I suspect they are from early pumps. Let me know if you want me to post one.

Because the later seals are available and they come with a ceramic seat, I would think it would be easy to machine up an adapter to suit the ceramic seat. I tried to dismantle two old early pumps yesterday but it seems that the pins and impellers are locked up with corrosion .... despite one LOOKING very free of corrosion. Perhaps after some soaking in CRC they might come apart? I would like to know if it would all work just for my own satisfaction.

Bob
R L Schapel

Me too Bob! Maybe we can crack this nut together? Please send me the shaft(s) that you have & I'll pay the postage. Email me at pjbm at bigpond dot com & I'll send you my address. If you have one early & one later shaft that would be great. The Dilitex seal is apparently no longer available.

I was asking if the later shaft, the seal from Pump Seal Supplies & the impeller from Abingdon Spares could be fitted into the TC pump, once the TC body was machined to accept the new seal. Cheers mate.
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Hello Peter & Bob. I've rebuilt several of the TC pumps. They take a bit more machining the the later pumps. The seal is on the shaft not in the body. You have to drill out the taper pin in the impeller to get them apart. The seal which is keyed to the shaft rotates on the body casting. What I do is machine the body to fit the seal, then put the impeller back on the shaft(or make a new shaft if necessary)machine the impeller to take the seat. Then it's just assembly like the later pump.

Butch
R Taras

Thanks Butch,

I didn't know about the drilling bit. That explains the blind hole in one of my old pumps. When I get time I will dissemble one so I can see it all first hand. I rebuilt one or two when I was about 19 but I am now nearly 64! The seal being keyed to the shaft is bringing back memories of a cross shaft "key?" I have rebuilt several pumps lately but they have all been the later type and so have been very easy. Sealed bearings allow me to remove the rear felt seal arrangement (apart from one washer which is needed for spacing) and leave the impeller on the shaft.

Thank you for the information.

Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

Butch it's great to hear that the original TC pump (used on the early TD) can be restored & that you have successfully rebuilt a few. I've sent you my postal address Bob & I look forward to getting my hands on one or both types of shaft. It would be very useful to have a CAD type drawing made of both shaft types for comparison & also so that others here could make the later replacement shaft if needed. Many thanks to you both. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Found this seal advertised on line for the TA to TF which can't be right as both the carbon seal & the Dilitex seal differ, as do their respective impellers. Can anybody identify it? Cheers
Peter TD 5801


P Hehir

Hi Peter. That looks like the seal used in the pump after the tc style. So later td/tf pumps. They haven't been made for around 15 years. I would suspect that the rubber would be brittle, unless some one is producing new ones, then I would want to know. I have some new in the box seals for the tc pump, but the rubber seal is hard.

Butch
R Taras

Hi Butch. Just clarifying the point you made above about the carbon seal being keyed to the shaft. I looked on D.4 of the WSM to locate the position of this key. The only one I could find is the key for the pulley I.D No 10 Key-pulley which is at the other end of the shaft? Also can you identify the seal in the pic above? Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Posts just crossed Butch. The guy who is selling them on line lists them as TA to TF, which is not right, so I suspect that they are old stock & hence brittle. I've asked the question & will post his reply. I also received an email advising that the original carbon ring seals are available, see pics. Are these also likely to be brittle or do you think they could be used? Cheers
Peter TD 5801


P Hehir

Pic 2


P Hehir

Pic 3


P Hehir

Been advised that the 3 pics just above may also be of the later (TF) seal. Hmmm.. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Hi,
Agree with Butch. It looks like the original type seal for the later (TF) pump. Might be getting brittle. From memory, the early (TC) seal is keyed with a little cross shaft which goes through a hole in the shaft. It is shown on a WSM I have but doesn't score a number or name. It is just behind the small spindle circlip (20) in the diagram.

Bob Schapel


R L Schapel

I'm sure I could make them.
Regards
Declan
Declan Burns

I reckon you could too Declan! Even the early TC ones. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

A little better look. PJ



Paul161

Thanks PJ I have that drawing. D.4 from the WSM. I just received the following from the Ebay seller of N8031 shown above;

"This seal is for the standard pump for the XPAG engine i.e. not for the TA. The seal is like the original type with the sprung loaded carbon ring and rubber bellows".

I've asked for further clarification on rubber condition & whether it is the early or late seal. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Also now have confirmation from Michael in Germany that his seals (the 3 pics above) are originals for the TF pump. As new versions of these are available from Pump Seal Supplies here in Sydney I'll be using the local new ones. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Declan, you should definitely do a production run of these. Seems like there is a real demand...
Geoffrey M Baker

More from the seller of N8031; "They are old stock seals. The rubber is reasonably hard but still flexible." I guess the only way to be sure they are serviceable would be to buy one & see. His description of "like the original type with the sprung loaded carbon ring & rubber bellows" certainly sounds like he is describing the TC type. If so, the restoration of the early pump may also now be possible, if the impeller & shaft are able to be reused. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter
To my mind the seals look nothing like the originals nor the later type,and what does he mean by rubber
bellows?? I have never seen the seals having rubber bellows unless the seller has found a different replacement??
John...Sydney
John Walton

Dunno John. The mystery deepens. If I had money to burn I'd buy one of each just to satisfy my curiosity. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

No pics available from the supplier of the NB031 as it is correctly identified. Just the following from Jonathon the Ebay seller in the UK who identifies himself as Oilsealman. "I don't have any more pictures. I don't have any information other than it is equivalent to a Payen NB031 seal." Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Here is a pic of the AESSEAL seal. Pic supplied by Bob Schapel via Gordon Clark. Anglo in Belgium have the TF shaft for about 100 Euros. Cheers
Peter TD 5801


P Hehir

This detail from AESSEAL. The top line is the relevant one. Cheers
Peter TD 5801


P Hehir

Geoffrey and Declan,
I doubt that there is any need to manufacture the later type seals as they are readily available in Adelaide (Ausseal) and Sydney (Seal Supplies) and probably in every other major city throughout the world. Seals for the early pump might be worth making although I am guessing that there is a way of adapting the later type seal.

Bob Schapel
R L Schapel

I now have the AESSEAL seal in my hand which is as shown in the pic just above. This was just purchased from Pump Seal Supplies in Padstow here in Sydney for a very reasonable $10 AU considering the detailed manufacturing. The PN is H68C-0120-ABN-6X. The description on the invoice is H68C-12mm-C/C/N-C=32 S=25X5. It also comes with a removable rubber cap over the metal top hat which apparently isn't used. Now I just have to figure out how to install it! Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Peter
The part number you have is different than what I have from Pump Seals. My part number is H68-127C-AXN-XX-F-12L which sells for $20. I telephoned Pump Seals yesterday to ascertain what the metal seal material was which they say is 304 stainless steel so all OK there.
He told me you came in just before I called and said he had difficulty with the part number you gave to him. Anyway I suggest when you come over next to bring the seal with you and we can compare them against each other.

John
John Walton

Will do John. He's a really helpful guy & he said if there is a problem he'll gladly swap it over. The number I gave him was the number in the AESSEAL catalogue which was provided by Bob Schapel to Gordon Clark in Canada who in turn sent it on to me. See pic above. I'll also pick up one of the H68-127C-AXN-XX-F-12L seals & I'll give you a call to arrange a time. As you suggest we can then compare both seals. Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

On the later pump I need to determine the gap between the impeller vanes and the pump body.I have an old one on the bench which measures a gap of 0.085". Would someone be able to check this measurement on their pump please,for if the distance on mine when I install a new seal is too great then I may need to machine the boss on the impeller.
Thanks.
John...Sydney
John Walton

John, the info I have from Butch states that gap should be .040". Cheers
Peter TD 5801
P Hehir

Thanks Peter.
John
John Walton

This thread was discussed between 18/03/2015 and 29/01/2016

MG TD TF 1500 index

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