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MG TD TF 1500 - TF Horn Location

Does anyone have a photo that they can share of the correct in situ horn locations of the TF. Mine had them removed when the P.O. put the "B" Series engine in and had to relocate/remove almost everything to compensate for the fact that that engine is "reversed" compared to the XPAG.
Thanks
Rod Murray 54 TF3006
Rod Murray

not sure if this will help

gblawson(gordon)

or this

gblawson(gordon)

Gordon- that"s perfect! Many Thanks!
Rod
Rod Murray

Hi Rod,

As Gordon's photo correctly depicts,the pair of horns on a TF are attached by 1/4" bolts/washers/nuts on the underside of each 'dumb iron' or chassis extension.The original nuts were 1/4" BSF Simmonds type self locking nuts.

The earlier 1250 TF Horns had a pair shaped, slender 'mouth' whereas the TF1500s had a broader,more evenly triangulated structure.

Cheers.

Rob.Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").









Rob Grantham

Hi Rob,

I can see the logic for using locking nuts in such a hidden location but I've never heard of this before as being an 'original' fitment. As you know the TF Parts Manual is rather vague on fastening details, but the horns on MGAs are similarily located, and the Parts Manual much more detailed. On MGAs full nuts and spring washers were 'original' fitments and it sems likely to me that the same applied to TFs.

Of course 'non-standard' variations ocurred even in the factory and later owners may well have fitted locking nuts. Could you say what the basis for the Simmonds nut usage is? Does anyone else have info on this?

As regards the horn trumpet shape, my TF1500, made in early Nov 1954 has the 'downward pointed' form. According to the New England T type Restoration Handbook the change to the 'even triangulated' trumpet took place at TF 8146 on Nov 23rd 1954, this shape continuing through to the MGA production. No doubt this date must be regarded as approximate, as with all 'change-overs', but it would seem that early TF1500s had the earlier shape trumpets as did all TF1250s.

Cheers, John
J C Mitchell

The TF I photographed had not been touched...very low mileage and pretty well 'as it left the factory'... It was HDC46/4010 if that helps?
gblawson(gordon)

Hi Gordon,

Can't see from your photos what shape of trumpet is on your car. Also from your chassis no it was presumably made around March 1954 and a 1250?

Incidentaly nice to see a good overrider/bumper fit, all too rare nowadays with so much poor repro!

Cheers, John
J C Mitchell

Hi John,

Not only were the Simmonds nuts used to affix the TF
Horns,but they were also used on TFs for example on the Fuel Tank Strap tensioners located under the car plus of course the bolt and self locking nut which connects the Spare Wheel carrier to the chassis rear most cross member.

Another area where these self locker nuts were used was on the bolt which affixed the Brass Oil Union fitting to its bracket located near the Fuse Block
under the left hand bonnet.

Most TF enthusiasts are aware that these Simmonds nuts are also located originally on the brackets/lock mechanisms that are on the under bonnets and side engine panels.

These nuts were not only found on the many TFs in these positions I have owned over the years but also confirmed by other TF enthusiasts who have very original cars in the Eastern States and New Zealand.

I am not absolutely sure of the Factories reasoning for their use in these areas,however,when one is working on the Bonnet lock mechanisms it is sure easier to fit the self locking nuts when compared to struggling with an additional spring washer !

Cheers for now.
Rob.Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Rod.........this is off TF 6688, 1954.

Hope the detail is better. Note the shot is upside down



colin stafford

Hi Colin,

This photograph of your very original TF confirms again the point that the Horns were indeed affixed with Simmonds nuts !

I notice that there looks like some sort of rubber
grommets (2) on your TFs Front Stoneguard.A friend who purchased an original TF Front Stoneguard at Beaulieu (UK) last year,also had these 2 rubber grommets fitted. Could you confirm that these are in fact grommet like fittings on your Stoneguard ? They seem to be missing on most restored cars but I suspect they should be in place.

Cheers for now.

Rob.Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

Rob......a sharp eye for details.
You are correct, there are 2 rubber grommets per side.
They are hard to see as they are quite thin, and are only used on the screw headed fastners, not on the bolts.
colin stafford

Gentlemen:
Many thanks for the input on this. Both gordon's and Colin's photos led me to the front of the frame (I'm still at the point of dismantling the wrong "B" series engine attachments so that I can get it out. I do have one horn wrongly placed on the firewall.) At the front I did find the remains of the brackets, from the horn still attached, on both sides where a P.O. "broke" the horns off. I've got a pair off of EBay that are wide mouths that I will fit in the correct location.
Best Regards
Rod Murray TF3006
Rod Murray

Hi Rob,

I was aware of all the lock nut locations you refer to except the brass oil line fitting and of course the horns! It's strange the horn lock nut fitting was not carried on into the MGA, although the main problem with such nuts is that they quickly lose their efficiency once undone and reused. Use of Loctite would be a sensible precaution yet keep originality.

I thought Simmonds nuts had fibre inserts but an advert in Flight magazine 1948, referred to the imminent introduction of nylon inserts. They were made by Simmonds Aerocessories Ltd(as written!)of Treforest, Glamorgan, in South Wales, presumably being first used in the aero industries. ( all this from the net)

Although rumours of a publication detailing all the fasteners on TFs appear from time to time, to my knowledge a comprehensive up to date list has not been made available - it would answer these nut and bolt questions.

Colin it's interesting to note your car has the early 'teardrop' horn trumpet the same as mine with a chassis no around 7900. I knew from the Parts Manual that there were two rubber grommets in the front fairing but have never seen a photo before. Is it a normal 'holed grommet', with a 1/4" ? Phillips machine screw, a large washer under the head and a loose nut spring/flat washer inside the radiator casing? Details on this set up would be great - mine just has the empty holes in the fairing!

Just another point Colin, the bolts on your horn fastening seem to only just reach the insert on the Simmonds nut. My info is that the bolts should be 1" long - are yours the same?

Cheers, John

J C Mitchell

Colin,

Thankyou for your prompt reply regarding the rubber grommets on your TFs Front Stoneguard. This confirms what my TF friend found on the Stoneguard he purchased at Beaulieu.I will now fit these grommets/washers to my cars.One question,is the Head of the dome headed setscrew going through the grommets on your original TF,Phillips or slot head ?
I may as well get it right.

I notice this rubber grommet is also evident on the Front Stone Guard of the TF from which Gordon Lawson has supplied a photo re horn position.

We never seem to stop learning about the accurate detail of these incredible little cars.

Thanks again for leaving your car unmolested !

Cheers for now.
Rob.Grantham
TF3719("Aramis"),TF9177("Athos").
Rob Grantham

I thought members may be interested in a period reference to Simmonds nuts. I have a copy of the mg workshop Manual by W.E.Blower (sometimes referred to as "the bible" by those of us with grease under their fingernails). My edition has a "Supplement to TF and TD Models" and on pages 531 and 575 reference is made to the Simmonds nuts securing the bonnet side panels, one to the radiator and one to the bracket connecting to the firewall.
My unrestored TF 1500 has Simmonds nuts in all the locations that Rob has mentioned.
My front valence is secured with two domed Phillips screws with rubber grommets as in Colin's photo.

Cheers,
Matthew.
Matthew Magilton

Hi,

I've done some more research on the front fairing to radiator fixing, shown on Colin's photo, and it seems that a 1/4" Phillips raised head machine screw, with a flat and spring washer went through the rubber grommet and into a square captive nut within the radiator base plate.

I suspect that the screws often rusted within the captive nut, which were then cut off, as with my car. Thanks for the contributors to this thread which have cleared up a no of details.

Cheers, John
J C Mitchell

I wpold assume that the "raised head machine screws were Posidrive and not Phillips, All the other machine screws (windsheild, etc.) are Posidrive.

It is very easy to strip the slots on a Posidrive screw by using a Phillips screwdriver on it as most of us have found out on restoring.

The Phillips screwdriver is designed to "walk-out" with too much torque, the Posidrive screwdriver is designed to "lock-in".

You can identify Posidrive screws by the radial dash marks between the cross slots.
Don Harmer

Hi Don,

Until you raised this I assumed all the 'cross headed' screws on the TF were 'Phillips. All I know about 'Posidrive' was that it was a GKN refinement, with ,as you say, an extra radial between the cross slots. It's all you can get in the UK now, although European goods still use the simpler cross head AKA 'Phillips'.

I don't know exactly when 'Posidrive' came into use, but I thought after the TF ? Does anyone else have further info on this?

Cheers, John
J C Mitchell

Hi Don, again!

Looking on the internet it appears that both the 'Posidrive' (Pozidrive?)and the 'Phillips' screw heads were developed by the American Screw Co. According to one site the 'Posidrive' came in around 1955-56, so do late TFs have them as standard? Perhaps GKN in the UK made them under licence, which would account for my misunderstanding!

Cheers, John
J C Mitchell

J C

Look at your windshield screws, you should be able to see the "cross" marks of Posidrive. I recently disassembled a windshield with my Posidrive screwdriver and had no real trouble even though the screws were nearly frozen in the badly rusted "L-clips".
This was from a March 1954 built TF that had sat outside in a field for 10 years. MGA and MGB also have NO PHILLIPS, all Posidrive.

Don
Don Harmer

FYI, Pozidrive tools are available from Snap-On here in the Colonies. Bud (former MGB owner)
Bud Krueger

This thread was discussed between 07/05/2009 and 15/05/2009

MG TD TF 1500 index

This thread is from the archive. The Live MG TD TF 1500 BBS is active now.