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MG TD TF 1500 - TF Spring Pan Washers originality
|I'm reassembling the front end after its been dismantled for many years and need some expert advise on the washers and originality|
- do BSF washers have the same dimensions as current imperial washers?
- are the washers on the spring pan also used under the bolt head as well as the under the nut?
- are all four bolts securing the spring pan all the same length?
- looking at TF9052 there appears to be washers under the fulcrum link pin bolts - can anyone confirm this?
There are a bunch of pictures on my website at http://www.dbraun99.com
My car did not have washers under the bolt heads. The bolt head provides enough clamping force, and since it should be stationary during tightening, no washer is needed under it. Under the nut, a plain washer and a lock washer is used. The plain washer provides for rotation of the nut (or lock washer) while tightening, once compressed the lock washer adds additional force on the threads preventing the nut from coming undone.
All bolts on the spring pan should be the same length.
Yes to the washers under the fulcrum link pin bolts at least on TD15470.
Tighten all suspension bolts with full weight on suspension. Since the spring pan and a-arm bolts should be just clearance fit (the holes should be round and not elongated or worn) you can tighten those in advance.
BSF washers are slightly smaller in outer diameter than UNF.
Hope this helps,
|Dave - I almost always bow to your superior wisdom, but I have never seen a car with a flat washer on the spring pan, and I just rebuilt the front suspension on a 35k (but very tired) TD. No flat washers. Maybe I just see the turkeys!|
|Tom, The boys at Abingdon were loath in almost every case to use a lock washer (the split style) without benefit of a flat washer to protect the underlying surface. However, in this case I think you are right and I am wrong. I just carefully checked my photos, and on the suspension for both the TD and the MGB, no washers are under the lock washers noted.|
Thanks for fixing my incorrect comment!
|Thanks Dave and Tom - as the majority of the evidence suggests no flat washer I will go ahead without them.|
The only picture I have seen of using flat washers under the spring washer on the Spring is on TF9052. http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgtf/Pictures/TF9052/Thumbnails/mgtf_tf9052.htm
These photos seem to show a flat washer, but other original TF's don't seem to have the washer. Perhaps the photo is misleading.
|I just took an early TD front suspension apart, and find that the inner pan bolts are about 1/4" longer than the outer ones, to accommodate the gusset in the pan.|
No flat washers anywhere, and the bolts go from the inside out.
Spring/lock washers are supposed to go against a fixed surface, flat washers aren't a fixed surface. PJ
|Paul S Jennings|
I thought I could could just move on from this but I'm having trouble.
I've always used flat washers under spring washers - that's just what I've done and anything else seems strange.
Searching the web for definitive guidance it seems this is a great debate. So rather than ask what is best practice I'll stick with what's original.
Looking closer at TF9052 I have no doubt that flat washers are used on the spring pan (see photo). So could it be that TF9052 is not original, or that the factory varied on the use of washers?
There is no doubt that this car is original. It is an amazing "Survivor" example. However, there are some things on this car that does "raise eyebrows". The picture you posted #148 there is a pop up "I" icon mentioning that the hardware was usually painted black but on 9052 they are cad.
During the car's lifetime, it probably has been worked on. It is a fact the owner did do somethings to the car to preserve originality. For example, he took off the dash under-shield and replaced it with a repo so the original wouldn't get scuffed up. He still has all the original parts. He even saved the factory radiator top hose. The original battery is probably still laying around somewhere.....
It is my guess, the front end on this car has been worked on sometime in the past. The owner worked in the aviation industry and he had access to cad plating there at the plant. I know this because he took his original hand crank that was painted black and had it cad plated. The original crank hangs on the wall but a repo sits in the car. Why he did this, I have no idea.
To answer your question in regards to the washers. In studying original cars of members on this BBS -- Colin Stafford, Matthew Magilton, and my car -- there are no washers under the nuts. Hardware was hand painted black and this is how I restored my front end.
|The owner of TF 9052 has had an obsession with preserving this car. I think at the vary least he removed the paint from the spring pan bolts. He may have had them plated. I don't konw. I am having a hard time understanding how these bolts have no paint on them. There is no doubt in my mind that this car really has 5,000 miles on it and has ALL the original paint, interior, top, etc. |
|I've rebuilt more than my share of front ends, and have never seen flat washers used on either the link bolts or pan bolts. Also, on those cars I have considered "original" the link bolts have usually gone from back to front. "Original" cars have been those with verifiable mileage, and totally worn out rubber bushings and tubes, suggesting to me that they have never been replaced.|
|Good eye Tom on the bottom link bolt. The area here with the unpainted bolts and natural finish to the pins was always in question. I think you just solved this and there is no question the front end was serviced sometime in the past.|
Link bolt inserted from the back to the front. My car TF1414.
|to the front as Tom mentioned in his post
|There's no substitute for experience - thanks guys. TF9052 threw me but it all makes sense now. I will be starting assembly today.|
|Frank, That's how my car was, with castellated nuts and split pins, no lock washers, only a flat washer behind the nut. Is it correct, I don't know, but I just put it back together as it was with new bolts, castellated nuts and flat washers from Moss. PJ|
|Paul S Jennings|
This thread was discussed between 21/06/2014 and 07/07/2014
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