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MG TD TF 1500 - Trailering; tie downs and tongue weight

I am buying an enclosed trailer for my mg td so I can transport it to other locations where I can then drive the TD.
I have purchased an 8' X 18' foot VEE front trailer. I was thinking of tying my TD down with four racket straps (crossed, of course). I was going to install four D rings for this purpose. The first issue I have is where to install the D rings.
A related question is where should the car be tied down within the trailer. The car is 12' long; the trailer is 18.' There is six feet of room to adjust the location of the car. Where do I place the car so the tongue weight of the trailer is not too large or too small?
I did not see anything in the archives about this and I have been doing some reading about it. I suppose, I can take it to a trailer retailer and ask them to set it up but I prefer to do it myself.
The tow vehicle will be a Ford F-150 with a tow capacity of around 7000# and the trailer and TD probably will weigh 4500#.
Milton
Milton Babirak

I assume that it is a 4 wheel trailer. The car should be placed so the tongue weight of the trailer does not exceed the capacity of the truck hitch, usually about 300 to 500 pounds. With the weight of the engine in front, I would start by placing the car just to the rear of center.

The "D" rings in my truck (enclosed box van, no trailer) are in the corners and along the sides, total of 5 on each side. In addition to my 1952 MG-TD, I often carry my 1936 MG-TA, 1902 Olds, furniture, and the occasional piano. Each load uses a different combinaton of tie downs. I bolted them through the wood floor and the steel frame cross members for maximum strength. They are about 6" from the side walls. Contact me off board and I can send pictures.
John Masters

Milton,

The TD is quite balanced on its wheels, (admittedly without people in the car it is front heavy) so the placement of the engine with respect to the wheels of the trailer is of less conseqence than the location of the TD's wheels with respect to the wheels of the trailer.

You could easily take two bath scales, place a stand across them and set the tongue at towing level on the stand. Load the TD and move it forward until you have a total of 300 lbs on the two scales. Make that the location of the TD, and then distribute the rest of the load equally from the trailer wheels.

The best straps to secure your car are the straps that basket the wheels and hold them secure. That way the bouncing of the suspension can not loosen the straps.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Milton; Locating your tie down rings is an important first step. Placing the D rings at the extremities of the trailer deck will give you the flexability to move the car forward and back as needed as well as achieving the tie down angularity needed for good control of the load. I installed 6 folding rings for additional options on various loads. Most critical is attachment of the rings to the floor-just bolting them thru the plywood won't do the job. As John mentioned, be sure and attach to the frame cross bracing with good bolts and nylock nuts. Had to fabricate some angle iron brackets on mine to accomplish this-pretty simple process. Back-up plates for the underside of the wood floor were available from the D ring supplier and I used those as well. Nylocks on all and recheck periodicly. Dave's weigh-in method is a great way to start-driving the loaded rig at highway speeds will tell you if more or less is needed. Since you are primarily hauling the same car, a locating stop screwed to the floor can speed the loading routine once you have determined an ideal location. Oh and probably ought to leave it in neutral-I never did that, till Twist showed pics of a gear missing teeth after a trailer trip. My 2 cents (or maybe 4)worth. Dan
Dan Craig

John, Dave and Dan:
Thanks for your helpful comments.
Dave: When I first started thinking aout this problem, I had the idea of the bathroom scale. I thought it was kind of a wild idea and dropped it. But it does make sense and I will start there.
Dan: I once talked wit John Twist about this and he said the same thing to me so I stopped doing it too. Also, when you are trying to fine tune the location of the car in the trailer by driving at high speeds, what should I be looking for?

Do you think four regular racheting tie down straps are sufficient or should I use two tire net straps on the front tires and two regular racheting tie down straps on the rear?
Milton
Milton Babirak

Milton: Normally, too little tongue weight results in a trailer that "wags"-ie a continual side to side motion at speed. May be minor or possibly severe in some cases at some speeds. Generally adding tongue weight can remedy this issue. Too much tongue weight just overloads the truck and hitch assy-let the trailer axles do the work of load bearing-let the truck provide the motion.
Never tried combining different styles of tie downs. I just use 4 ratchet straps to the frame and check them every fuel stop. Lots of folks use tire ties-on all 4 corners. What ever you use, check them often-they will stretch initially and stuff does happen. Hang in there Dan
Dan Craig

Milton
Another thing you want to do is get four heavy duty axel tie down straps to go around the axels and not use the hook end of the ratchet tie down. Mine ended up getting cut. John
John Hambleton

Milton,

And most importantly check the speed rating of your tires if they have the ST (Special Trailer) designation. Although this is taken from the Marathon Tire link it is applicable:

"Industry standards dictate that tires with the ST designation are speed restricted to 65 MPH under
normal inflation and load conditions unless a different speed restriction is indicated on the sidewall of
the tire."

"Based on industry standards, if tires with the ST designation are used at speeds between 66 and 75 mph,
it is necessary to increase the cold inflation pressures by 10 psi above the recommended pressure for the
load.
o Do not exceed the maximum pressure for the wheel.
o If the maximum pressure for the wheel prohibits the increase of air pressure, then the
maximum speed must be restricted to 65 mph.
o The cold inflation pressure must not exceed 10 psi beyond the inflation specified for the
maximum load of the tire."

Before I read this I was continually blowing tires on my trailer because I insisted on pulling at 70 mph (a long way to go and a short time to get there). Since decreasing my speed to no more than the occasional 68 mph and overinflating the tires I haven't blown one in three years.

Gene


http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/goodyear/Marathon_Special_Trailer_Applications.pdf
Gene Gillam

Guys who tow a lot - WOO sprint car racers - tell me that tying down the wheels and letting the suspension move is a guaranteed way to kill your shocks. They remove their race shocks and install stiff tow shocks, in addition to tying off the frame (NOT pulled down onto the bump stops! - if you do that trailer flex results in stressing the car frame, straps, etc.). One friend told me that he destroyed a brand new set of shocks in a single 5/600 mile tow. He then started checking them at every stop and found them too hot to touch. Sprints generally use torsion bars and Heim joints, so there is essentially no friction (damping) in the suspension; lesser mileage and friction in leaf springs and rubber bushings reduce this, but still...

FRM
FR Millmore

John and FRM: Where would you suggest to tie down on the front of a TD if you used straps? At the rear, I tie down in front of the rear bumper.

Gene: It did not occur to me to check this. Good suggestion. Actually, I have heard so many stories about towing accidents, I am afraid to drive above 65.

Appreciatively
Milton
Milton Babirak

Guys - Another thing to consider if strapping the rear axel: Be careful the brake lines are avoided, to prevent flattening them. Lou VanK
Lou Van Koningsveld

Milton-
I don't have much experience with hauling restored cars, I believe in driving those. All those I get are old & broke like me, so we usually use chains and don't worry about paint. I go around the inner end of the lower control arm on MG.

If you are going to haul a specific car or type of car, then it makes a lot of sense to make specific tie down hooks, adaptors, etc. They can either go on the car (specific car), or on the strap (type of car). They can be padded or whatever you need for the situation as far as paint protection and such.

I will repeat Lou's advice on the brake lines!!

FRM
FR Millmore

I have for years, been trying to ascertain the weight distribution of a TD or TF.

With my newly-acquired PA, I find myself facing the reality of buying or building a small, light trailer.

I would like it to serve both the TF and the PA.

Does anyone know the weight distribution of a TF (or TD, for that matter - can't be that much different)?

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

Gordon A Clark

Gordon-
Why worry? The weight distribution is probably very near 50/50, (most RWD cars with the engine more or less starting at the front axle centerline) and will vary with fuel loads, car contents, etc. 5% is only 100 lbs on a 2000lb car. You're talking about rolling the car a few inches either way. If you think it actually matters, go to a truck scale and weigh each end separately. Gravel and concrete yards are a good place to look - they always have accurate scales, since they sell by weight. Or a truck stop.

BTW: I helped reconstruct a rusted out two axle slide back trailer, about 20ft. We weighed the tongue as mentioned above, with scales, on a flat level floor. That resulted in the axles being about 18" forward of where they were on the factory platform, and it was virtually untowable, loaded or empty, very frightening. Moved the axles back to original position and it works fine, just like it did for the first 15 years. We didn't bother weighing it again, but it is certainly substantially above the theoretical amount, empty. Loaded depends on where you put the load. And it works fine with different tow vehicles. I have since observed that all factory made two axle trailers have the axles where we wound up; the front axle is about centered. Evidently two axles complicates the theoretical tongue weight numbers in some way under dynamic conditions. Makes sense since a two axle will sit level with no load, even if the axle pair is somewhat back of center; has a lot to do with hitch height too.

Gene:
I never quite understood why there are special trailer tires, except for the old style mobile home fall-off-by-themselves ones with the odd sizes and tapered beads. Here it is now illegal to use those on trailers, and I expect that is both widespread and a good thing. So, use truck tires and go as fast as you like.

FRM
FR Millmore

FRM,

I've never heard of ST rated tires being banned...or are you speaking of another type? I drove up to Ohio to pick up my trailer (open aluminum) and it came from the manufacturer (http://www.trailex.com/) with the ST tires.

I know a lot of people use LT tires but here are the reasons to continue using the ST rated ones:

http://www.automedia.com/ViewPrintArticle.aspx?AutomediaId=ccr20040501tt

And lastly, by slowing down to 65 - 70 mph I only increase my time on the highway a short period of time and I get a tiny bit better gas mileage.

Gene



Gene Gillam

Gene-
You will note that I said "special trailer tires", not capitalized, sorry for creating confusion.
What's been banned is the tapered bead, tapered clamp rim, mobile home type. Very popular for homebuilt trailers since the axles are everywhere. But the wheels fall off if not put on correctly - used to be very common, and the tires come off the beads if the air pressure gets too low.

The blurb on ST is nothing but industry marketing justification and legal protection for an undersized, overloaded, cheapo tire with crappy tread. ALL of the so called "benefits" that are true (increas3ed load capacity and narrowness) are those from overloading an insufficient tire, and the speed restriction is the direct consequence of doing that. That is very much in the interest of the manufacturers of such, and the sellers of many - the trailer manufacturers. They save on the tires and pass the markup on to you. You don't get the profit edge when you have to replace one either. I understand why the tire and trailer manufacturers do it, I don't understand why otherwise rational people fall for it.

It is maybe reasonable to use such a tire for low mileage very light duty, where space is tight, like a small camper or boat trailer. That's the 4.00x12 and similar types. I view a car trailer as a sort of truck, and don't think the tires should limit the vehicle performance.

In particular, they keep emphasizing that the trailer tire "is simply free rolling, it doesn't need the same degree of traction on wet pavement" Seems they have not heard that most trailers of the sort we are discussing have BRAKES, which are not mentioned at all. They also evidently don't know that trailers can and do slide sideways on wet roads, especially when you use the brakes on truck or trailer with the shallow and rudimentary cheapo tread.

It's BS like this that leads to things like many states restricting trailers to 55 or less, creating serious traffic flow problems and taking up half your vacation time, or reducing your hourly pay by half, in the process. So, you aren't going to go "65-70" legally, and I will note that you are still exceeding the speed restriction - please go buy some real tires, I'd like you to stay around a while.

FRM
FR Millmore

This thread was discussed between 05/09/2009 and 14/09/2009

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