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MG parts spares and accessories are available for MG T Series (TA, MG TB, MG TC, MG TD, MG TF), Magnette, MGA, Twin cam, MGB, MGBGT, MGC, MGC GT, MG Midget, Sprite and other MG models from British car spares company LBCarCo.

MG TD TF 1500 - Water Pump - Huge Leak

We were out for a drive today, but I forgot my cell phone (roadside assistance?) so we returned home. Afew blocks from home, the temp jumped to 95, then to over 100 1 block from home. On shut down, it was indeed overheated, and water was dripping quite badly from all over the sump case. After investigation by refilling the radiator (car off), it is definitely flowing massively from directly under the water pump, and not apparant anywhere else.

Can this be just a blown water pump gasket, or does it suggest water pump issues also. All help appreciated.

Larry
L Karpman

The seal weep hole is at the bottom of the pump- it is designed to leak outside when the seal fails, rather than into the bearings which could cause the pump to sieze. How old is the pump? George
George Butz

For all I know it's the original pump George.

Larry
L Karpman

I believe the pump is original, or close to that, as it has a grease fitting. Looks like a replacement is in order, so I have some questions.

1. Can it be done in situ without removing the radiator? I would protect the rad and my knuckles with cardboard.

2. I assume the cotter pinned nut on the shaft holds the pully on?

3. Once the nut is removed, as well as the nuts on the 2 studs and the 2 bolts at the base, does the water pump and shaft remove as a unit, or do the shaft, spacers, and bearings come out separately?

4. Does the engine steady need to be removed?

5. Do the newer pumps from A/S or Moss still require grinding at the bottom to seat properly, or has that manufacture issue been resolved?

6. Any other issues I need to be aware of?

Thanks in advance

Larry
L Karpman

Larry.

Answers as best as I can recall:-

1. On a TD - do-able, on a TF neigh impossible, but still, do-able for someone with child-like hands!

2. The cotter pin is just like all safety divices. It simple keeps the castelated nut from undoing because it turns in the "wrong" direction

3. Not easily. A little tapping should release the entire spindle assembly. The bearing may need a little coaxing, expecially if any water has come in contact with their surfaces.

4. Not removed, but you will have to back off on the steady side so you can move it aside in order to remove the pump. Frankly, it an easy item to remove.

5. I don't know Larry. The last time I bought a Moss seal/bearing kit, I had mega problems. I strongly suggest you get your kit from Abingdon. The seal (07/020)in their kit comes from Dilotex in the Uk and features a carbon race backed by a brass shim - a significantly better design that the old one.

6. I rebuilt my pump last year and have had no problems. I have a new spare seal if you want it as long as you replace it. Abingdon have been out of stock on this item at least twice that I know of. If you do get the kit from Abingdon, be sure to run the pump dry for a couple of minutes so as to seat the carbon on the brass.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Thanks Gordon. Perhaps I didn't impress that I will replace the whole unit rather than rebuild at this time. rebuilding parts is NOT my forte :-)

So, are you saying the pump does not come off as a unit, and the spindle and bearings come out first? Or are you saying to tap on the spindle to get it all to come out as a unit?

Thanks for all the info.

Larry
L Karpman

Larry, The water pump is relatively easy to replace. You do not have to remove the rad.Try the following.
1- remove the fan belt.
2- remove the fan blades.
3- remove hose on right side of pump.
4- remove the two nuts & two bolts on pump.
5- pull pump straight out from block.
6- order new pump.
7- while waiting for the new pump,take the old one
apart and see what was wrong with it.

A good number of years ago, I ordered a replacement pump from Moss, and it would not fit into a TD head. The body seemed slightly longer than the old pump. It could have been installed by using several gaskets but that would have caused the pulley to be out of line with the others. I am not familiar with what MG you drive, but you might inquire about this when you order the new pump. I was fortunate that it was for my TF head and was installed without any problem. I never could understand why the difference but it could be a supplier issue. Good luck and watch the knuckles.
George Raham
TD 4224
G. L. Raham

Larry, I recently replaced the water pump on my TD.
I have a couple of observations about the new pumps, which are made off shore. The cast flange casting is slightly larger than the original and will require some grinding or filing on the lower drivers side corner, or it will not seat fully due to interference with the top of the timing chain cover. I found that I also had to relieve the end of the generator brace for it to clear the top drivers side of the flange. You may or may not have this problem but this is the second pump that I have encountered with this problem.
Also while you are at it remember the mounting studs and bolts go through the block into the water jacket, so if they loosen, you will need to put some type of sealant on their threads.
You do not have to remove the engine steady but one end does fasten with the lower water pump mounting bolts, and it is tricky to get them on while holding it in place, etc.
I have changed a pump before without removing the radiator, but it is a back breaker and a tight place for the wrenching and proper fit up of the pump.
I chose to remove the hood and radiator and this gave good access to clean everything; check for proper fit (per the casting details above); clean and seal the studs and bolts (4 different lengths for 4 different locations); place the new gasket and sealant and then place and seat the water pump - all while being able to see what I was doing.

Also remember the four bolts that hold the fan through the spacer are slender and will snap if you look at them hard ;^)

FWIW
Dallas
D C Congleton

I replaced the four fan bolts with ones from my local industrial supply...
gblawson(gordon)

Larry,

As Dallas has pointed out, the new pump castings are not the same as the old ones, so I suggest you consider rebuilding yours. Its not a difficult job.

The pump should come off as a unit, as George Raham has pointed out.

If you have a WSM, page D3 is very usefull as it has a detailed drawing.

With the pump out, once you have the castelated nut off, the entire spindle assemble should push out but may require a little effort (tapping).

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Thanks George and Dallas.

Dallas, you said, "You do not have to remove the engine steady but one end does fasten with the lower water pump mounting bolts, and it is tricky to get them on while holding it in place."

I don't see on my TD where the steady attaches to the pump itself. It looks like it attaches just below the pump body. What am I missing here?

Also, "I have changed a pump before without removing the radiator, but it is a back breaker..."

This is the biggest issue for me. I have a bad back and bending over the engine bay will probably cause great discomfort and pain for weeks to come. I'm seriously considering letting a local shop do it. I would guess less than 2 hous labor for them.

Thanks again for the info.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Thanks again Gordon. Something to consider. Anyone know if Phil marino is still rebuilding pumps?

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Larry, the pump end of the engine steady bracket is fastened to a bracket that is attached to the lower pump stud and bolt. The bracket has the same hole spacing as the lower part of the pump and is placed over the lower pump flange before fitting the stud nut on the passenger side and the bolt on the driver side.

I actually would have liked to rebuild my original pump, but ran into a snag trying to find a seal or a good rebuild kit. Maybe someone on the forum knows a good source, or a good pump re-builder.

Dallas
D C Congleton

OK, I see the bracket now. I assume the steady is dropped on the pump end just by turning the turnbuckle to shorten its length enough to come free of the bracket?

Larry
L Karpman

Also a good time to change the rubber washers in the engine steady ends since one end will be removed anyway. Although it would be easier with the bonnet and rad removed, it is not that bad on a TD. Removing the radiator alone (with the nuts under the support) is not exactly fun, quick, or easy. The lower rad hoses are cheap- if not nearly new, order new ones and just cut off the old ones if they are stuck. Pay close attention to refitting the pulley- read the archives if you can find it. George
George Butz

George: Yes I've been reading the archives. You say, "Lastly, make sure the washer under the nut will slip over the end of the shaft inside the threads- or you can tighten falsely against the shoulder on the shaft. Hope this makes sense!"

I assume you mean to make sure that there is no unthreaded shaft showing when you put the washer on. Correct?

Also, I noted that one member had trouble fitting the new pully to the new pump from Moss. Has anyone had trouble with fitting their "old" pully to a new pump from Moss or A/S?

Thanks again

Larry
L Karpman

Hi Larry,

Sorry I'm chiming in late, I'm in Houston, evaluating a production facility for aircraft parts.

But... I did rebuild my water pump, and found it a rewarding experience. You can review it on the website. http://www.dbraun99.com/mgtd15470 -mg td15470 Restoration » Engine XPAG TD2 15613 » Water Pump

It isn't hard to replace the seal, and press the bearings in place. The process is straight forward. You can do it by pressing things into the housing with a vise and a few sockets.

warmly,
dave

Dave Braun

Thanks Dave. With my neophyte skills, I'd probably mash something too hard :-) I think I'd rather have a new pump or have mine rebuilt by an expert. I do thank you for your confidence (yours too Gordon), but I know my past history with things like this :-) You may say you have little experience, but your rebuild proves otherwise.

Once again, your site proves an invaluable tool to everyone! We can't thank you enough.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

I've been waiting for a new water pump seal from Abingdon Spares for several months now. They said I'm No.13 on a backorder list of 22, and they don't know when their single source supplier will get them some more. Anyone know of another source?

Tom
T. A. Sorensen

Larry, I just realized that in my earlier thread, I referred to a TF head and it should have been a TF block. I apologize if you found this a little confusing. I have fortunatly not had any more problems with the pump so cannot relate to any recent difficulties.
George Raham
TD 4224
G. L. Raham

Larry - "I would protect the rad and my knuckles with cardboard."

Duct tape over the knuckles is all that is required. It protects the knuckles and doesn't take up as much room as cardboard. cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Larry,
I'm glad Dave added the comment of cardboard on the rad for knuckle protection. While you are in there, this would be an ideal time to replace the orig fan with an MGB plastic one! Much more efficient !! Especially down in Hot Texas,,,,,


SPW
Steve Wincze

Tom, here is a pump on eBay-

http://cgi.ebay.com/MG-TB-TC-TD-TF-Water-Pump-AEF19-Made-in-UK_W0QQitemZ230304679645QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item230304679645&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177

It looks exactly like the pump which I recently bought for $126 US on eBay from an American seller with eBay name britishpartsplace. The pump appeared to be OK except for the slightly large flange.

Dallas



D C Congleton

Larry,

I recently replaced my water pump with the help of this group. Unlike most of you, I am an MG novice and in fact prior to owning my TD, I very rarely worked on any car. So even though I am reasonably technical and handy with tools, I was somewhat nervous about this job.

My approach was to simplify and open up the work space. I removed the radiator, hoses, etc. I decided to order a replacement pump so I could get the car back on the road as soon as possible (I plan to rebuild the orignal pump at my leisure as an educational exercise).

The first phase was very easy, even removing the radiator was not difficult.

I had no problem fitting the new water pump. I did not need to grind the edge. I installed a new gasket and used a gasket sealer. I installed a new fan, new hoses and clamps.

Before adding the coolant I ran the engine for 30 seconds to seat the gasket. The entire job took approximately 8 hours, but I did not rush any step.

I am certain that it would have been difficult for me to replace the pump without removing the radiator.

Mike

Mike Iandolo

Thanks all. Your advice has been invaluable as usual. If I do replace the pump myself, I will probably remove the radiator to gain better access. I have previously installed an MGB plastic fan, so I'm Ok there.

I think that now I have all the info I need to do this, but my main concerns are how my back will hold up doing the job, and the fact I may not be able to remove some the older bots or nuts without damage. Yet, turning it over to a shop is not something I look forward to. I will decide soon enough.

Thanks again to all for your sage advice.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

I replaced water pump on my TF and from what I can remember, the only real problem was getting the four slotted bolts out to remove fan. There was no way of getting screw driver in between fan and radiator (even an offset screwdriver). Ended up removing them with vise grip. When replacing I used hex head bolts.
SEAMUS
F. HEALY

Larry, If you decide to do the job yourself, I would recommend that you raise the front end up as high as possible, putting the front wheels on something like concrete blocks. This will be much easier on your back.It will also be better for your knuckles.
George Raham
TD 4224
G. L. Raham

George's recommendation to raise the front of the car is an excellent suggestion to relieve the strain on the back. However, I have one admonition - please don't set the wheels on concrete blocks. Use jack stands or purpose designed ramps to hole the car up while working on it. Concrete blocks (unless you are using pier blocks, which will probably throw the back out just trying to move them into position) have a nasty propensity of shattering when heavy objects are resting on them and even though you won't be working under the car, a falling car could impart some real damage to a leg or foot - not to mention the car. Cheers - Dave
David DuBois

Thanks for all the safety advice. Just checking the location of the radiator mounting bolts below, and I note the steering rack appears to be in the way. Is it possible to get a ratchet and socket on the nuts without dropping the rack?

Larry
L Karpman

No socket, even with u-joint or something, it is really miserable, with a fractional turn of the end wrench each time, especially if they are rust. No concrete blocks- good way to get crushed!
George Butz

Thought so George. One more question. Gordon Clark said, "The cotter pin is just like all safety divices. It simple keeps the castelated nut from undoing because it turns in the "wrong" direction."

Do I assume the spindle is reverse thread then?

Larry
L Karpman

No. It turns counter-clockwise..

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Tom Sorensen,
I have a policy of never buying just one (inless its very dear). If I can afford it, I always buy two.

So Tom Sorensen, I have a new Dilotex seal which you're welcome to if you are planning to drive your TD through the Michigan winter.

Let me know and I'll send it along and you can replace it when yours come in.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.

Gordon A. Clark

Say folks, how does one brace the watherpump pully to get the spindle nut off?? I've got the fan, spacer, belt, and spindle nut cotter off now, but can't seem to find a way to brace the pump pully to loosen the nut.

Larry

L Karpman

Larry, put the belt back on and use that to hold the pulley. Paul
P.W. Lester

Won't the engine rotate that way also, when the ratchet is leveraged to break the nut free?

Larry
L Karpman

Not if you squeeze the belt with your other hand. It will hold the pulley and not turn the engine. Paul
P.W. Lester

Squeezing as hard as I can, and the pulley still rotates. This nut is TIGHT! I've spratyed some more Aero Kroil on it and will try again tomorrow.

Thanks as always

Larry
L Karpman

Gord Clark,
My TD is in an advanced stage of disassembly - but on the road to recovery. I have the engine back together (except for the water pump) and ready to mate to the transmission and put back on the bare chassis. I'm not in a rush, but I am worried that the seals won't be available again. Worst case is I have to buy a new pump and sit on the new bearings and other innards I have to rebuild my old one.

Please contact me off-line and we can discuss it some more. Thanks for your kind offer.

toms53mg@yahoo.com

Tom Sorensen
TD22927
T. A. Sorensen

Larry, if you have a socket and breaker bar, you may find that a sharp rap with a hammer on the ned of the bar will break it loose.
Not to be insulting, but you did remove the cotter pin ;^) ?

You may find that you need a puller also to remove the pulley from the shaft.

Dallas
D C Congleton

Can you put a socket over the nut, and then fit the tip of a screwdriver through the opening between the pulley and socket? I honestly don't know if there is room, but you can try. Or carefully using a rag to prevent damage, grab the round outer part with a large vice-grip or pipe wrench.
George Butz

Thanks guys. Yes Dallas, the cotter pin is removed. The problem remains holding the pulley from moving. I will continue my efforts later today.

Speaking of cotter pins. The one on the driver side stabilizer bar is driving me nuts getting out.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Larry,
I don't know if it would work, but how about a "strap" type oil filter wrench as shown on this site,,, http://www.ctatools.com/oilfilter.html Might have to wrap a length of old belt around the pully for a better griping surface..



SPW
Steve Wincze

OR,,,, how bout a chain type pipe wrench ??
http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/C/AE_chain_pipe_wrench.html ,,,

again, a lenght of belt around the pulley for a better griping surface,,,

SPW
Steve Wincze

Thanks Steve. I guess I am wondering how others have removed the pulley while the pump was on the car, unless their pulley nuts were not this tight. Perhaps they removed the pump and then removed the pulley on the bench?

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

How about using a fan blade and a couple bolts? Slide the blade up to the pump as close as you can and hold the blade, etc. Don't bend it!
George Butz

Sounds like that's worth trying too George.

Let me address the engine stabilizer for a second. I believe I can remove the pump and pulley as a unit IF I could get the engine stabilizer dropped. Am I correct in assuming I must get the castle nut off the driver's side (cotter pin driving me nuts), or can I drop it by undoing the easy to get to passenger side nut and washers/bushings?

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Larry, I changed mine without disconnecting either end of the stabilizer. After I removed the nut and bolt holding the bracket under the water pump, the bracket slid off the stud, and I flipped it upside down, and there was enough flex in on the fender end to push the entire link down and out of the way. For reinstallation I just turned the bracket back upright, and repositioned under the pump.
D C Congleton

Thanks Dallas, tried that. The bracket will not budge, as it is wedged up against the back side of the pulley. I removed the far side stabilizer bar nut, washer and rubber and tapped on the shaft to see what would happen, to no avail.

Larry
L Karpman

UPDATE: Well, I got all for bolts/nuts off the pump body, the stabilizer link is loose but can't get it totally out of the way, BUT the pump is holding fast to the block. I've tapped it here and there with a small mallet, but it won't budge. The pulley is still attached, but that should not stop it. Suggestions?

Larry
L Karpman

Disregard my last. The pump is loose from the block! Now to get the hose off :-)

Larry
L Karpman

Woo Hoo! Pump is out! Will get the pulley off on the bench I guess. Thanks to all once again for all the info. Suggestions for getting the pulley off on the bench are welcomed :-)

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Congrats Larry,

I've been following this thread with mounting excitement - will he - won't he - get it off! Now the real fun starts, dismantling the innards! The pulley is rather fragile, and I've broken a flange before now! Fear not, it can be brazed or welded, so I suggest holding it in a vice with soft pads, across the diameter, and with a socket on the nut sharp but firm tapping (on the socket arm) should remove it.

Good luck, John.
J C Mitchell

Thanks John. I braced the pulley and pump in a bench vice cushioned by wood on each side, and had little trouble removing the nut. However, it looks like I'll need a puller to remove the pulley from the pump.

Dallas: You were right. Once I cut the hoses off (I have a new set on hand) I had no trouble moving the stabilizer bracket out of the way. I did remove the right side bottom nut on the pump with the bar in place, but it was a slow tedious process

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Hi Larry'

Take care with a puller - that's how I broke a pulley flange! Suggest penetrating oil + gentle butane torch heat to break the keyed fit.

Again good luck,John.
J C Mitchell

Heh, I can't find the key. Where is it located?

Larry
L Karpman

Larry'

Don't worry, it's only a standard woodruff key (half moon shape) that slots into the shaft and pulley to produce a good tight fit. Once you've removed the pulley with a 'straight pull' all will be clear. That's why I suggest heat, oil and patience!

Cheers, John.
J C Mitchell

Larry, you may not see the end of the key yet as there is usually a flat washer under the nut, which helps assure the nut is pressing the pulley back onto the taper before it bottoms out on the threads. Good idea to put one there if not.
I have a three prong puller which distributes the pressure evenly around the pulley, but it is wise as others mentioned to be careful. Even with the puller, I had to improvise with a small deep socket as a center for the puller shaft to press on the pump shaft.
This is a taper and once it starts it will come on off.
Clean the taper on the new pump shaft and inside the pulley with a little 400 paper so you will get a nice fit, and a film of oil or white grease to keep it from rusting for the next time;^)

D C Congleton

Thanks John and Dallas. I thought the woodruff key was visable with the pulley still on, and needed to be removed to pull the pulley off. Obviously not. If the nut holds the pulley on, what is the purpose of the woodruff key?

Thanks

Larry
L Karpman

Larry,

The shaft is not a taper but parallel, hence the need for a key. As Dallas says take care with a three leg puller as it tends to only pull on the rim of the pulley - best to leave the nut partly on so the centre of the puller has something to push on!

Cheers, John.
J C Mitchell

Larry, the key keeps the pulley from turning on the shaft. John is correct about the parallel shaft, I am confusing my cars in my memory.

Dallas
D C Congleton

Thanks again John and Dallas. Should the new pulley go on fairly easily, or is there a bit of force required?

Thanks

Larry
L Karpman

The pulley should fit fairly snug. Once the threads of the shaft are far enough through to get the nut started, it will press the pulley on. The new pump will probably have a self locking nut, so you will not have to fiddle with the cotter pin.

Dallas
D C Congleton

Hi Dallas and Larry,

Good advice but I would only add that with self locking nuts I tend to also use Loctite locking liquid as a precaution.

Cheers, John.
J C Mitchell

Thanks again John & Dallas. I'm going to look for a puller today. Jim Merz also sent a great pic to me of the shaft and key. All is clear now to complete the job. Without all the great folks here, it would have not been possible for me.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

UPDATE:

Got a small puller today and the pump pulley came off with ease. I noted that what I believe is the front felt dust seal of the water pump came off and was stuck to the inside of the pulley. I assume the new pump comes with the dust seal in place, and I should remove the old one from the pulley?

Also, on grinding down the lower right corner (from the front) of the pump body if need be. I do not have a bench grinder, but do have a Dremel tool. Can I assume it is such a small amount that the Dremel grinder will do?

Hopefully my new pump and parts should arrive tomorrow and I'm back on the road in a day or so. The driving weather now is incredible. 70-80F daytime, so I'm looking forward to it.

Thans for any input

Larry
L Karpman

Hi Larry,

Glad pulley came off OK, you now have a puller for jobs you don't yet know you need one for!

If the existing 'stuck on' felt seal is in good condition leave it. Look at the new seal which should be with the new pump either seperate or on the shaft. Look at the quality, it should be quite fat, and only acts as a dust seal when compressed and is not critical.

Can you not use a file on the pump body? Suggest you refer to the old pump as a pattern using 'brown paper',for the amount to be removed. Keep old pump - it can be rebuilt by someone in the future - all the parts are available ,although not always within a convenient timescale!

Envy your weather, it's now gloomy November in the north of England, no sun and around 40F!

Good luck, John.
J C Mitchell

If anyone wants to see the hard-to-get Dilitex water pump seal, here's a pic:-

Gordon A. Clark

hello, in this thread mike says, "i ran the engine for 30 seconds to seat the gasket.." i have been a mechanic for over 30 years. this is new to me. i have heard of water pumps that manufacturers recommend turning the pump with a drill PRIOR to installation. i have NEVER heard of running a water cooled engine for any period of time without coolant and i am totally unfamiliar with what gasket would be "set" by this proceedure. anybody else have any experience with this? regards, tom
tom peterson

We had a similar discussion a while back, Denis Baggi said that he would run an engine without coolant for several minutes, which I thought excessive. I've run several right after building them for 10 or 15 seconds without coolant. It is a common practice around here to make sure something isn't out of whack before the radiator is installed during a restoration. We just build oil pressure, and then introduce 12 volts to the coil and viola!

As an aside, my car makes great oil pressure, runs strong, and has 2100 miiles on it since the rebuild, so I'm certain I didn't hurt it.

I've never heard of running a pump in by turning it on the car. I think I would do it with a drill as well, to burnish the carbon seal. On my water pump, the bearings were shot, but I had the 'late' rubber seal, and it was in great shape. I simply replaced the bearings and reused the seal. No leaks at all.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

There was a bit of info on the in the archives about burnishing the carbon seal before adding coolant.

In the Moss catalog it says, "New water pumps should be run dry for 15-30 seconds to seat the carbon seal to ensure against leakage. This may be done by running the pump with an electric drill or on the engine before adding coolant."

I don't see how you can use an electric drill, as clamping down on the threaded end in the drill chuck will ceratinly damage the threads, and my drill chuck will not open wide enough, nor is deep enough, to clamp onto the nut.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Sit watching TV for an evening and just keep spinning it....15 seconds at speed, or an hour by hand should work out about the same?
gblawson(gordon)

Larry,
Go to a good hardware store and get a "coupling connector nut" that fits the threaded shaft of the pump,,, cut the head off of a bolt that fits in the other side of the connector and screw it in. Use this headless bolt to fit into the chuck of your drill..

Hope this helps
SPW
Steve Wincze

Larry,

The route suggested by Steve is fine, but bear in mind the thread is probably metric on the new pump spindle - take it with you to the shop!

Cheers, John.
J C Mitchell

The seal that I have pictured above, is a Dilitex seal, made in the UK and I believe, unique to Abingdon Spares.

In the package, is a little note to run the pump dry for about 2 minutes.

In my case, with the pump still on the bench, I used a hand drill and did this and I can't recall which direction I rotated it, but I can't see what difference it makes.

Running it dry, will allow for greater wear and cause a better surface mating. IMHO once water is introduced to the seal area, if the carbon races are not properly set, its unlikely its going to provide the tight seal needed to exclude water.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.



Gordon A. Clark

Using the old pump for a test, actually a few wraps of duct tape sufficient to protect the threads, and not clamping down hard on the chuck is sufficient to spin the pump without damaging the threads. Thanks for the suggestions.

No pump arrived yesterday, so I only had the opportunity to put in new stabilizer bar rubber bushes and prepare the surface of the block for the new pump. Made a cardboard tracing of the old pump body as John suggested to have a better idea of any filing/grinding of the lower body to be done.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Got the water pump today. Test fitting required the usual grinding off the bottom right (facing forward), but the pump impeller flange will not fit in the block hole. The flange on the new pump is wider! It has a stepped flange, with the base wider than the part closest to the impeller. This is where it appears to be hitting the block. Anone have this issue before? The pump came from Abingdon Spares.

Larry
L Karpman

OK, I had NAPA measure the flanges for me and the new one is actually .001 smaller!! Then, I read the instructions on the box. It says, "the mounting holes may have to be enlarged to fit the pump to the block!" Obviously these are not made to very close tolerance. Guess I'll do that.

Larry
L Karpman

I have not drilled the mounting holes larger. I'm waiting for more input from this forum before I do so. While waiting, I tried test fitting the original pulley. When the groove on the pulley and the woodruff key align, it barely goes on any further with hand pressure. What is the recommended method to force the pulley on the shaft, or is something amiss here?

Sorry for so many posts, but I don't want to unnecessarily break the pump in the process of trial and error.

Larry
L Karpman

One more post. When I press the pulley on to test fit, without the pulley being half way on, when I remove it the woodruf key has risen in the back.

I have filed the woodruff key, as it sat higher than the one on my old shaft. I have even removed it and slid it in the groove in the pulley, and it fits fine.

In addition to best way to get the pulley on, how do I keep the woodruff key from rising in the rear? Or, will further tightening cause it to center itself parallel to the pump shaft?

Sorry for all the bother.

Larry
L Karpman

Hi Larry'

Sorry about the probs you're having with the new pump fittings. Ease out the mounting holes one at a time,and checking if pump fits after opening out each hole, taking the minimum out you can. It is possible all holes might not need enlarging. With imperial drills 1/64" increments are normal so if in doubt suggest you might need to invest in a few new drills, unless you already have a good set! Gasket holes will also need enlarging to suit.

As far as woodruff key is concerned difficult to advise without seeing, but when fitting such a key it is normal to tilt the front down to facilitate fitting, the rear then normally levels itself. Check new key and slot with 'original' pump as a guide, but as a general guide take care with filing. Pulley should be fairly tight, screwed on with the nut. Don't overtighten, circlips can be damaged - see Archives.

Good luck, John.
J C Mitchell

Thanks John.

Bob, from Abingdon Spares called me this morning, and indeed these pumps can be a problem. According to him:

1. COUNTRY is the last of 3 former suppliers making the pump. He's not sure where they are made. Enlarging the mounting holes may be the only way to get it to fit the block.

2. He suggested honing the pulley hole so it would be snug, but slip on. Also, the original castle nuts will not fit the shaft, due to different threads. Must use nyloc nut that comes with the pump. No way to cotter the nyloc!

So, if you need a new pump, he says all vendors are selling the Country pumps. Good luck!

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Country professes to be an English brand, but most of their products are now farmed out. I think the pumps are made in India. Some of the parts are good, other no so much. Shame really, they just need a little quality control.

Larry if you have some wet dry type sanding paper, roll a cylinder and put it in the puller bore and polish it a tad.
For enlarging the pump flange holes, I would use a round file by hand, or maybe chucked in drill.
A drill bit can catch and break the cast iron very easily if it is not perfectly aligned.
Hang in there- you are doing very well- best to be prudent and patient.

Also congratulations on one of the post with the most replies ;^)

Dallas
D C Congleton

Hi Larry,

Dallas's advice re using a round file to open out the mounting holes is sound if you don't have access to a pillar drill. Not so sure about opening up the pulley hole - you might need to fit it to an 'original' water pump shaft one day! Better to polish the shaft of the new pump - spin it in a lathe? Pulley must be a firm fit however - don't overdo it!

As I said before keep the old pump and get it rebuilt! You now know why!

Cheers, John.
J C Mitchell

Dallas/John: Holes are drilled and the pump fits!! One task down, one ( or more) to go :-) Now for the pulley.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

What bothers me is that Abingdon and I assume Moss and probably others, are sending out these defective pumps, knowing full well they don't fit.

IMHO, this is not the way to run a biz.

If the owner of Abingdon Spares, Bob Seymour (I presume) can call Larry Karpman, then he (Bob Seymour) is one person who has the clout to change matters.

I'm just glad I have a couple of ready-to-go spare pumps on hand.

Gord Clark
Rockburn, Qué.
Gordon A. Clark

Gordon,

I couldn't agree more! The annoying thing is that in many cases a part is not needed very often, and what with all the trouble in fitting etc I'd rather pay more for a quality item. Why do we put up with it!

Cheers, John.
J C Mitchell

And they will tell you that is all we can get. BS they have the clout to get them made correctly, it's just too much trouble when the competition is selling the incorrect part for a lot less money.

The proper answer is of course to offer both with the note that the cheap part requires some modifications to fit.

Then after a bit,review the sales figures and decide which to contiue to sell. But at least note that the part they are selling does not fit without modification.

I'll get down off my soap box now.
Cheers,

Bob
R. K. Jeffers

Folks, I agree will all off the above. This job has been a nightmare compared to how easy it should be with a proper fitting pump.

In addition to all I have already had to do, now I have to grind down the either the top of the engine steady bracket or the areas around the lower stud/bolt holes as the engine steady bracket will not mount because the pulley sits deeper on the body than OEM and the left side steady and bracket prevents the pulley from turning.

Oh joy :-(

Larry

L Karpman

Larry'

Without wishing to add to your problems, if the pulley sits further in, can you not pack it out a little to clear the steady bracket? Don't worry about lining up exactly with the dynamo and crankshaft pulley. The belt should be run very slack, as per Archives, and will be ok with considerable misalignment!

Cheers, John.
J C Mitchell

Larry, I think JC has a great idea. Just use a washer to space it out a little. George
George Butz

Gordon: Don't ever sell, barter, trade, assign, award, or otherwise part with those pumps!

According to Bob Seymour of AS, Country is the only remaining supplier of these replacement pumps. I have all back together except the fan and will test run tomorrow. While I'm no expert on anything MG, or even general mechanics, I now have a huge wealth of info if I need to do this again with a Country pump (although I won't).

If anyone gets a Country pump, be prepared for the following:

1. You MUST grind down the bottom right to clear the timing chain cover (not unusual).

2. You will probably have to enlarge the mounting holes because the hole pattern is off. I used a 3/8" bit.

3. You will need to file down the woodruff key (not unusual)

4. The OEM pulley will need to be pressed on by some means, as it will not slide on the shaft by hand.

5. You will need to either extend the pully forward to clear the stabilizer bracket under the pump or it will rub. As John said, "pack it out a little to clear the steady bracket." Or, grind the top of the stabilzer bracket. I did the later becuase I had not read John's message, and wasn't smart enough to think of it.

6. You will have to grind down the end of the top generator arm/bracket, as this pump is rounded on that side, and not flat like the OEM. You can't get the bolt back in the block without grinding the end.

All in all a miserable job, not knowing the above in advance, and if not for all here on the forum I'd be SOL.

Thanks for everything.

Larry
L Karpman

I have been avidly reading this thread since the beginning. I contributed an entry at the earlier stages of Larry's ordeal where I described my experience with my water pump replacement. I purchased my replacement water pump from Moss and I did not need to grind the edge, I did not need to enlarge the holes, and I did not have any problems with the key or fitting the pulley on the shaft. After reading these latest comments I am beginning to wonder if I either got a unique pump that is completely within tolerance. Is it possible that Moss is hipping out different brand pumps?
Mike Iandolo

Mike: I wish I were as lucky as you. Quite possible Moss has a supply of pumps from a much better manuafacturer than Country. I usually order from Moss, thru LBCC, but this time went for the price that AS had for theirs. Also I wanted it fast and Moss' 2 day shipping is outrageous.

The purpose of my latest postings is to get the word out about Country pumps. I'd hate to see too many in the future go thru this. Should this pump work OK, then I guess that's fine. If not, you can bet I'll never get another one made by Country.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Hi Larry,

Glad you eventually got it on and I trust it has a long life! Having to open up the mounting holes from 8mm(5/16") is not just a minor misalignment - surely the suppliers can at least insist that these holes are accurate! Having to modify the dynamo bracket must have been the final straw.

If you look in the Archives and look at the workshop manual you'll see dismantling your old pump is not that difficult and the bearings are certainly easily available, being metric. The new seals mentioned by Gordon would be worth getting as well. the tapered pin holding the impeller can be tricky but patience and a good punch, tapped not hit hard always works.

Rememberence day service is about to start from London on the TV, so I'll be off.

Cheers, John.
J C Mitchell

The pump I bought from Abingdon 2 years ago fit with no mods except for the little bit of grinding at the bottom right. They were out of stock on the bushing back then as well....! Have had no problem with the new one...looked like the same casting just without the grease fitting.

gblawson(gordon)

Like Mike from New Jersey, I also contributed my thoughts on the instalation of a new water pump based on my last one in 1996. This was ordered from Moss and the instalation was as simple as I described. There was no reshaping of the flange, redrilling of the holes or interference of the pulley. It is a shame that the present supplier can not correct the problems, and provide a pump that will satisfy the required specs.
George Raham
TD 4224
G. L. Raham

Rob: I agree, as do many others.

Well the car is back together. At first, after filling up the cooling system, I had a very slight weep from the weep hole. But after running the car in the driveway for 30 mins at temperature, at various RPMs, the weep is gone. Is this normal? I'd sure hate to do this again so soon.

Thanks

Larry
L Karpman

Took it for a short dive. The pump leaks from the weep hole!! Not a great deal, but enough to tell me the seal is no good. After all of this too :-(

Larry
L Karpman

Larry, in an effort to move this post to the century mark, I'm weeping for you.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Larry,

Did you run the seal dry as recommended? Even if not keep running the car and it's very likely that the leak will cease in a short while. Meanwhile keep some water with you.

Good luck, John.

PS Congrats on reaching 100!
J C Mitchell

Thanks John. Yes, I ran the pump on the bench for 2 minutes with a power drill. I'll run the car an see what happens.

If 100 were my age, and I reached it, I'd be real happy. Don't know if it's a good thing to reach 100 posts though. I feel bad I had to ask so many questions, but the archives don't cover much of what I encountered with this Country pump. Hopefully the info will be valuable to someone else.

Larry
L Karpman

I found a place that sells "Whitley" water pumps. I know Whitley made rebuild kits in the UK for years. They may have been an original MG supplier for all I know. Does anyone know?

The price, without sending your old pump for a core, is $154.95. Sending in your old pump drops it to 124.95. I chose to keep my old OEM pump. They said the pump is marked WX76, whatever that means to anyone. They are without grease fitting. I did order one.

If anyone knows anything about the Whitley pumps, I'd like to know. BTW, the $#@%$@ pump I got from Abingdon Spares is "COUNTY" not Country as I previously stated. Sorry for the error.

Cheers

Larry


L Karpman

Larry, that sounds like a pretty fair price for a pump if it fits properly and accepts the pulley without problems.

Thanks for researching that.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Larry, all of the original and even new ones from 10 or so years ago had the "WX76" cast into the body. Maybe you can try stop-leak? (just kidding). since I started messing with my TD in the 70's, there have been many times there were fit issues with repro parts, from bad machining on a new crankshaft (the thrust faces were tapered and not parallel), mis-shaped chrome items, and funky rubber parts. Frustrating-yes. On one hand no excuse for ill-fitting stuff. On the other hand, this stuff is made in small batches, and sometimes that is all Moss or Abingdon can get. I think the manufacturer tells them take it or leave it, and that it can be made to work with modification. At least the stuff is available- in the 70's, only about half of what you can just order today was out there. Very common to wait weeks for backordered parts. We spent a month finding a cluster gear in good enough condition at one point. At least you'll be able to whip the pump off and on quickly now. George PS- need to enshrine this thread somehow for the record lenght!
George Butz

Geez Larry I've been lurking on this thread off and on and I tell you "I feel your pain". Yikes!

Persistence my friend.

Dave
D Clark

Not too much pain anymore Dave. Good to hear from you. My new pump will be here tomorrow (I hope). I pulled the defective one yesterday in about an hour. I expect the new one to go in as fast (if it fits :-). Amazing what you can do once you've done something at least once :-) Actually re-attaching the fan takes the most time when you replace the pump like I did without removing the rad.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

Larry' I used to purchase the Whitley kits from Moss. I have contacted a few people in The UK and Whitley Rishworth is apparently no longer making the kits. However I am still looking as I have several pumps that need help. somebody is making these parts somewhere and I hope to find them.
Sandy
conrad sanders

I installed the Whitley pump today. It fit perfectly with no filing of the body required (except for the woodruff key). I checked the operation in the garage up to 3200 RPM and no leaks. So far so good.

I did have an issue with fitting the pully. It, as with the other replacement pump, would no press on by hand all the way. I had to let the nut take it all the way down. However, after tightening the pulley nut quite tight, the pulley would not turn very well. The imperller was rubbing at the rear. I used my pulley puller, and took it off. The impeller was still rubbing, but loosened up nicely by running it on a drill for a few seconds. I reinstalled the pulley and tightened the nut (this time not so much torque), and all is well.

That said, now I wonder if I have the nut tight enough. The new shafts do not accept the OEM castle nuts as the threads are different, and come with a Nyloc nut. No place for a cotter pin.

My question is, should I remove the nylock nut and use Loctite and reinstall? Sure would hate for the nut to loosen and loose the pulley, spacer, and fan at speed.

Any good advice will be appreciated.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

A nyloc nut should hold its position. On aircraft propellers we are allowed to reuse them once. I would ease my mind on this one, Larry.

Glad you've come up with a solution you can live with. I often think that you are a much better mechanic than you sometimes give yourself credit for.

warmly,
dave
Dave Braun

Sounds like the problem is solved Larry. Great work and a hell of a lot of patience always wins out!
Jim Merz

Larry
It looks like you've finally got it.

To further ease your worries on the nyloc nut is that in general usage on aircraft if you cannot turn it on by hand it may be reused. Most mechanics replace them long before that but they are definitely usable more than two or three times.

That said nylocs are a no no around the aircraft engine although I've seen it done. Don't worry though the air cooled engines run a lot hotter. The nylock system is well proven on the newer T type pumps.

Now it is easy to have some compassion for the shop that has these kinds of troubles and finds it hard to get compensated for it.

Have fun!

Dave
D Clark

Thanks all! The fan is back on, the test drive is done, and so far no leaks. I'll call it a done deal then if no leaks develop in the next few weeks.

I'll have to admit it seemed a daunting task when one has never done it before, but I can assure any novice mechanic out there that it is easily done, without removing the radiator, by even a mechanical dunce like me :-) Just read the archives, and ask questions. Only fight is to tighten the lower stud nut once all is in place. Lots of fingers, maneuvering, and a short 1/4 Witworth open end wrench does it.

Abingdon Spares will refund my money on the first replacement pump, and Bob Seymour requested info on my problems. Maybe something will be done. Who knows.

Dave (Clark) I now have your 4.3 rear end mated to a Datsun 5-speed tranny and I am more than pleased with the combo. Maybe the pump will even last longer, as now I am rarely above 3200 RPM :-)

Wouldn't you know , the minute I'm done with the effort on the pump, and the weekend is here, we have a cold front moving thru. That's OK, I'm driving it anyway!!

Thanks again to all who helped with advice and encouragement.

Cheers

Larry
L Karpman

"Dave (Clark) I now have your 4.3 rear end mated to a Datsun 5-speed tranny and I am more than pleased with the combo. Maybe the pump will even last longer, as now I am rarely above 3200 RPM :-)"

Yeah Larry I'm jealous! Well maybe. I keep thinking part of the charm of the "T" experience is the crash box. Well someday I might have to stop by and try yours if we get over that way.

Now you've got the "go" but how about the "whoa"? Disc brakes next?

My next is a front sway bar, and maybe one on the rear. I want it to corner flat like a MGA.

We could try to keep this marathon thread going :-))

Dave
D Clark

I note that on my rebuilt Whitley water pump, there is still a small unthreaded hole on the left side (much smaller than old pump's threaded hole for the grease fitting). I assumed the pump had sealed bearings when rebuilt, as it has the courser threaded shaft and nyloc nut unlike the older grease type pump.

Now I'm wondering why the hole is there. Could it be possible that this pump has the older grease type bearings, and I have to drill and tap the small hole for the grease fitting? Do the later replacement pumps you folks have been putting in have such an unthreaded hole?

No box or instructions came with the pump.

Thanks

Larry
L Karpman

Larry, I think your best bet is to leave well enough alone for now. At least, unless someone else has an identical part in hand that they can disassemble and look at the bearings for you. Short of that, you will have to remove your pump to confirm the type of bearings used in yours.
If you start drilling and threading the hole for a grease fitting, some of the metal particles are sure to find their way into the bearing(s).
One other possibility that won't hurt anything is to use a grease gun with a pointed nose on it that is filled with the old time water pump grease. That type will not effect sealed bearings, will do some good if they are open bearings and no drilling is involved.
Jim Merz

Thanks Jim. Frankly I didn't even think you could get unsealed bearing rebuild kits anymore, nor would a manufacturer make a grease type rebuilt pump without a "threaded" hole for a fitting and/or a nipple on it if grease type bearings were used.

Hopefully the distributer knows, or someone else has a greaseless pump like this with a hole in the side.

Larry
L Karpman

This thread was discussed between 01/11/2008 and 24/11/2008

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