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MG TD TF 1500 - Wire wheels on a TD
|I am hoping you can correct the following misinformation that appears on your website. I have also emailed email@example.com which is where it seems to have originated.|
The following para appears on The MG Cars Enthusiasts Club Web Site.
"A Mark II version of the TD was introduced during its production run, having a slightly more powerful version of the XPAG engine (57bhp) with a higher compression ratio and bigger carburettors. There were also improvements made to the suspension, while the one-piece seat back and individual seat cushions gave way to a pair of bucket seats. In 1952, centre-lock wire wheels were offered as an option"
I don't agree with your statements that "while the one-piece seat back and individual seat cushions gave way to a pair of bucket seats. In 1952, centre-lock wire wheels were offered as an option"
Are you able to provide your source? All of my research confirms that both of these remarks are inaccurate. TD's, TD2's & TDC's (Mark II) never left Abingdon with wire wheels, nor with bucket seats.
Please investigate & correct as these statements continue to cause considerable argument here in Sydney.
|Tom Lange, maybe you know about this...Interesting.|
|You're obviously correct about the error in those statements. But, I have no idea of where you found those statements on this site. Can you show where this is found? Bud|
|Here's the page--try cutting and pasting this:|
I have no idea who's responsible for the content.
|The TD was never offered with wire wheels, and none ever left the factory with them. The parts to add wire wheels to the TD became avalable through dealer networks after the introduction of the TF. People could, and did bring their TDs back to the dealer for the conversion. It is quite possable that late '53 TDs could have had this conversion done at the dealership and then been sold "new" that way, but I have never come accross such a car. Even so, such a conversion would have been done on a car that had been built with disk wheels.|
There was a publicity photo for the MK II that showed bucet seats, but they were not built that way outside of one car, maybe.
We need to be clear on the differences of the three types of option
A factory option, a dealer fit option and a dealer fitted modification.
The lack of wire wheels on a TD caused mush debate and wire wheels were eventually a very popular "option"
It is true they were never an official factory fitted option on standard production TD's but they were a common dealer fit "option"
Perforated or solid steel wheels are "correct" depending on the TD age.
But wire wheels were such a common dealer fit "option" that few don't accept them as correct for the period.
|A book by Clausinger from the early 80's has the bucket seat part in it. I think this is just some mis-information that has been passed down over the years.|
|I sent the following to Mike Plumstead, the WebMaster:|
It's been brought to the TD-TF forum's attention that http://www.mg-cars.org.uk/mgt.html contains erroneous information about TDMKII cars. It says:
A Mark II version of the TD was introduced during its production run, having a slightly more powerful version of the XPAG engine (57bhp) with a higher compression ratio and bigger carburettors. There were also improvements made to the suspension, while the one-piece seat back and individual seat cushions gave way to a pair of bucket seats. In 1952, centre-lock wire wheels were offered as an option.
The TD was never offered with wire wheels, and none ever left the factory with them. The parts to add wire wheels to the TD became avalable (sic) through dealer networks after the introduction of the TF. People could, and did bring their TDs back to the dealer for the conversion. It is quite possable that late '53 TDs could have had this conversion done at the dealership and then been sold "new" that way, but I have never come accross such a car. Even so, such a conversion would have been done on a car that had been built with disk wheels.
There was a publicity photo for the MK II that showed bucet seats, but they were not built that way outside of one car, maybe. (David Sander, Chair NEMGTR)
You might want to have that corrected.
(Hope you don't mind my quoting you, David) Bud
FRX 942 was raced with grey leather bucket seats, and probably 941 & 943 as well.Sadly they are long gone but I do remember them from when I was a kid. I imagine these were factory fitted but never offered as an aftermarket option.
|What I am waiting to see is the spare wheel adapter for a TD with 'factory' wire wheels. Its easy, and could be done by anyone, to obtain the TF wheels and drums from 1954 on. I am sure plenty of dealers did that. My own father did the same for our car. They are a natural fit on the TD.|
But the question comes about the spare wheel. I have heard rumors about a special adapter that allowed a TF wire wheel to be mounted to the regular TD spare tire carrier. My father could not, or did not bother to get one. There was some question about how far out it made the wheel sit on the carrier but that's speculation on my part not having seen one.
Since TD and TF parts were rampant in wrecking yards in the 50's and early 60's that's where my wire wheel 'kit' came from. Including another TD spare carrier that has a wire wheel hub welded onto the place the slotted wheel mount is. The mount was cut off and the hub welded on. It was cheaper to do that than buy an adapter and being of Scottish heritage, enough said. So I now have a complete set of both types of wheels, hubs/drums and two carriers. In an afternoon I can swap between the two.
So if anyone knows anyone who claims they have a factory wire wheel setup (ie that uses the TF wheels and drums), please have the contact me with a photo of their spare adapter.
|It all boils down to who do you believe.? I've found that Anders Ditlev Clausager is human, and has made misteaks, but from what I understand, only the prototype Mark II built for Dick Jacobs to race, had the bucket seats|
Wire wheels are not mentioned in the Mark II Supplement.
|Gordon A Clark|
|I join with everyone else - I have never seen a factory TD with wires, and do not believe they ever came that way. I also do not believe that any production Mark II ever came with bucket seats any more than Mark II cars came with front brake air scoops, although it is clear that the thinly-disguised factory-prepared Mark II race cars did have them. The FRX's noted above are the most likely candidates, as well as FMO885, which started it all when it was photographed for the factory brochure.|
To add my .02 to the factory/dealer option semantics, I would say that a factory option is something listed in the parts book and delivered by the factory on a car from new. A dealer-installed option would be a factory part listed in the parts list and fitted from new by the dealer. A dealer modification would be something fitted to a car by a dealer after the fact, or an aftermarket part not on the factory parts list. To my way of thinking, a part installed by a dealer on a used car is not really a dealer option - and wires fall into that category. To claim that alloy valve- and side-covers were a "dealer option" also feels incorrect. Is an XPEG engine installed in 1955 when the XPAG blew up a dealer option? I don't think so.
|The last page of an original MG TF sales flier. Note: "These are the NEW features"
|Tom: One flaw to your model is the MGTD's that sat on dealer lots after the mgtf came out and had optional wire wheels. The TD lost its luster in '53 and dealers were want to move them. They would do anything they could (adding bling etc) to try to get them off of the lot. And I bet when the TF's came out it was even harder to sell a TD. I have all sorts of people who think they have 1954 or even a 1955 MGTD based on the first registration date. The MGTD did not have model years per see. The 1953 was about the only version that had a distinct year cutover.|
In my opinion a factory option is something that was supplied by the factory but not necessarily installed by the factory. Your test that it shows up in brochure or price list it a good one. In fact I am not aware of any factory options that were installed by the factory before shipment. They were all installed by the dealer but supplied by the factory as an orderable part. The dealers had complete control over that process (except the Mk II of course which was a distinct model and not an option). To attest to that the factory absolved themselves on responsibility for any accessory or component fitted to the car outside of the standard features in terms of the written warranty.
A dealer option would be anything available to a dealer to install at or near the point of sale. Dealers were want to load up a car when a customer bought it (they made more profit there than on the sale of the car). They also wanted you to come back and buy more items from them they would install. Arnolt is probably the best example of this. They had a network of dealers and also sold the products direct for consumer installs. I suspect there could be a case made that the dealers and large distributors put some form of pressure on the factory to develop and offer certain parts as options (the Mk II parts are a great example). Also note that the factory luggage rack is exactly the same as Arnolts.
So to net it out a dealer option need not only be from the factory and also not sold at the same moment the car left the lot for the first time. But it should be limited to an feature that a dealer would have sold during the first sales period of the car, not resales of cars years later. This I think is what Ray is point out above. He sites a very popular dealer installed 3rd party accessory that I can assure you some cars left the lot with for the first time.
But I digress because this thread is debating if wire wheels are a factory option, not a dealer option. There is no proof that this was in fact true. But the old saying goes: 'absence of proof is not proof of absence'.
|Just so we are clear, the parts to put wire wheels on a TD did not physically exist while the TD was in production. Any conversions to wire wheels occurred after TD production ceased, and after TF production comenced. No TDs left the factory with where wheels. It is only a theoretical probability that SOME late '53 TDs MAY have been sold with a conversion installed at a selling dealership. |
|Dave. That is how I see it too. And that is the argument I use when people claim Mk II's had optional wire wheels! Why would they make them for a few late Mk II's when even the early TF's did not have wire wheels.|
If they actually did exist as a factory option later (and I think its OK to have a factory option for a car even when its no longer in production) we should be able to find that spare adapter on at least one car.
|I went into the TD web pages and cleaned up a few statements with regard to all of this. While in there I came across a potential part number.|
This is supposed to be for the kit. But I have not had a chance to go over my parts books to see if this number exists and if so, what does it refer to.
|What we are overlooking, is the requirement to fix a spare wire wheel to a TD and this was not easily done.|
It required butchering the TD spare wheel mount to allow the welding of a splined hub and it had to be dead straight or it was crooked. One had first to buy a splined hub (abt. $200 today) and butcher it too.
I don't believe the TF spare wheel mount can be adapted to a TD. Ditto the splash apron which, because of its added dimension, can be easily added.
For those still insisting on mounting wires to a TD, that will continue to be a problem.
|Gordon A Clark|
|Just FWIW, "The MG Story" (Joseph H Wherry, 1967) contains the following passage:|
The TF midget was a styling development only, the improvements to the engine in the TD Mark II being retained, as was independent front suspension. Disc wheels were standard; knock-off wire wheels were optional.
The interior of the TF was considerably changed: the seats became individual, the dash was redically redesigned with the instruments in the center flanked by a large, open parcel compartment on each side. ..."
Could "individual" seats be thought of as bucket seats?
|J K Chapin|
|Jud. The individual seats the people talk about are not racing style, not like the TF.|
Gordon. This was my BIG point. Show us the adapter :-)
|Good day eh: Attn: Mr. Couper.|
Regarding Part # ACG 5163. I checked the June 1958 TD Parts List # AKD 834 and the TF Parts List, # AKD 804, 2nd. Edition, March, 1958 for that number and it does not appear in either book. Good hunting mate!
Just for your information.
Jack Emdall, TD3191, Halfmoon Bay, British Columbia, Canada
|Thanks Jack. I am not surprised but we will keep looking ...|
|Thanks guys. It seems we are all in agreement. TD's of any description never came with either wire wheels or bucket seats. So how do we go about getting the misinformation corrected? I've emailed the webmaster (twice), as has Bud. So far no reply or correction. Maybe if everbody sends Mike Plumstead an email we may get some action. TD's rule! Peter TD 5801.|
This is way off topic. Hehir is an unusual name, I remember an actor of that name, are you one and the same person?
|I thought there couldn't be too many of the same name. I had one of my cars as a prop on the Sullivans many years ago when we were both boys. I think it got blown up in the London Blitz or was it the Williamstown Blitz in Melbourne?|
|Oh by the way Peter since you seem to be so interested in correctness on these sites could you please change your comment from "TD's rule" to "TF's rule" please. Now there's a hornets nest I just stirred up I bet.|
|I have had it changed to this:|
A Mark II version of the TD was introduced during its production run, having a slightly more powerful version of the XPAG engine (57bhp) with a higher compression ratio and bigger carburettors. There were also improvements made to the suspension, rear end ratio and other performance characteristics. Most of these features were available as parts to be applied to the regular TD by enthusiasts.
|In the TF "Service Parts List" AKD 804, the WW Spare wheel carrier assembly is listed:ACG 5008|
|Dave W - that is a listing for the unique TF wire wheel carrier, which will not fit a TD.|
Still no evidence that TD's ever came with wires - I doubt they did. I've never even seen a dealer invoice (and believe me, I LOOK!) for a TD with wires.
|Carl Cedarstrand of the Vintage MG Club of Southern Califonria wrote an article about wire wheels on a TD for the June, 1979 issue of The Sacred Octagon. Carl discoved a factory part number for the TD spare wheel carrier - ACG 5162. The part number was confirmed by Mr. Pete Neal at the MG drafting office. Mr. Neal also advised that the part number was taken out on November 4, 1953 which Carl points out was almost 2 months after TD production ended. Carl goes on to say that is very unlikely that a wire wheel TD was ever produced by the factory, but that a TD could be retrofited using all factory parts. |
Hope this helps,
|Back in the day when I had both my TD's |
I had one of each - Steel wheels and Wires.
I preferred the look of the wire wheels and and as you can see form the newly rebuilt TD. I was not so bothered by the concourse police - I had also fitted the TF wiper system. and it had individual TF seats.
The good friend I bought the car from had assembled all these parts over several years and all I had to do as assemble and paint it.
I never regretted wearing wire wheels. But I did put the car back to STD re the wipers and seats. As you get older you see things differently I guess.
Once I get the spare off I will send Chris all the pictures he wants re the carrier and how it is fabricated. The Rear valance is STD as far as I know no change there and I have no idea who fabricated the carrier? It is as I received it in 1970.
|R D Jones|
|Hmm. Based on Sherman's comment above the part number being ACG 5162 and my number being ACG 5163 makes me think I, or someone, made a typo. So now we have another number to look for.|
Rod: You can never send me all the pictures I want :-)
Send me this picture too. I can use it in the period gallery. Much appreciated.
You have mail - hope this is all you wanted.
|R D Jones|
|The following para appears in Clausager's book, which I just acquired.|
"Once the TF had appeared MG rather surreptitiously offered a "service kit" (Part No ACG 5163) to convert TD's to TF wire wheels, incorporating the hubs, wire wheels and so on from the TF, so the most legitimate wire wheeled TD's would be those that use the appropriate TF parts. Quite a number of TD's are now fitted with other proprietary wire wheels. It is still debated whether some of the last TD's were fitted with wire wheels from the factory, but I feel it is more likely that late TD's held over in dealer stocks could have been converted before delivery to customers, which seems to have happened in the USA."
He also states on the previous page;
"When the TD was introduced...the steering arms and links would project so far into the plane of the wheel as to complicate the arrangement of spokes if wire wheels were used - so the TD was offered only with a deeply dished disc wheel size 4Jx15."
Peter TD 5801
|Rod: Got the emails. Thanks. I have info that yours seems to be a TC adapter welded to the TD carrier.|
For those following along if you have access to the NEMGT Register TSO from June of 1979, Carl Cederstrand (VMG CC in So Cal) actually got the documentation that is referenced by Peter above. His car sports this adapter. Right under my nose and I never realized it :-)
I have asked Carl if he is willing to share a copy of that with the world and a good quality picture of the carrier. The one in the TSO is not decipherable.
Basically the mysterious TD wire wheel carrier is ACG 5162 and was put into service on Nov 4, 1953.
This thread was discussed between 29/10/2013 and 07/11/2013
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